48 replies to this topic

[Kenny]

Right picture the worst case scenario, powers are granted to Scottish Government.

Instead of just waiting to see what is landed on us by people who don't care or understand our sport.
I have been working on a possible proposal to offer the MSP's

Instead of licensing or any form of tighter controls, it can be overcome in a very inexpensive and controllable way in which is very workable.

PERMIT SCHEME:

You buy a permit from a post office, enough to cover the costs of the publication of the booklets.
Which consist of a counterpart which only the post office retains.

Once purchased the conditions of the permit will be that you have to carry it on you at all times and also store any aie weapons in a secure cupboard or cabinet.
The law already states that unless going to a gun club or a gun shop or land where permission is granted then you do not have resonable grounds to be in public with an air weapon.

So if stopped then you have to prodeuce your permit, if you don't then you get a 'ticket' to produce it within a reasonable time (say 7 days) in the meantime the police can go and view the post offfice and see the counterpart to prove you have purchased one!
If you cannot produce one or the permit is proved to be fake then the police have the right to take the air weapon and destroy it, they will also be granted the right to search your dwelling and confiscate any other air weapons in your possession.

If stopped in public, and you have a valid permit the police still have the right to visit your property to check that your storage facilities are adequate and comply with the conditions of the permit.

This may sound harsh but lets think for a minute, most incidents that occur at home involving children are caused due to the fact that air weapons are left under beds, in unlocked cupboards, attics or garages.


LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK PLEASE!
This is just a rough draft, with the jist of the propasal?

rgds
kenny

[giancarlo]

well i think that if i`m gonna be made to sign up to anything then a simple but effective idea such as this would get my vote. I think a proactive stance by the airgunning community is exactly the form of action that should be taken, why rest on our lorrels in the hope that everything is gonna be ok when there`s a very real chance that its not gonna be. Approaching the msp`s with a counter offer as such might shine a good light on us as a whole, show them that we do care about this sport but also more importantly show them that we`re not gonna stand for an out n out ban.

Rgds

Gian

[alan44]

Good idea simple and easy to execute cheers Alan

[yohann]

Sounds like a good idea and would be workable.wullie

[jaster]

sounds very workable
common sence !!
wonder if the suits will go for it?
i hope so
but unfortuneately i doubt it


cheers

[Andy H]

The Idea is good, Problem being most people still see the air rifle in the hands of the ned. I think this is what we have to try and change.

[scarecrow243]

Hi Kenny your idea is a good one but if you are going to the bother of getting a gun cabinet and getting a permit sort of from the post office then it would be better just to go for an f.a.c. because the police force will just treat your idea the same way sorry to put a downer on it but it will happen, dave

[Projmanraz]

Post removed by author

[Kenny]

I agree with manafacturers and traders being invovled in the loop,as this will also help track and locate the second airguns down, but i'm not keen on having a total web based content of personal details and how many airguns i have ready to be hacked and stolen.

The permit scheme from a post office is not new ideatit has already been in force, also less chance of getting an entire database of information from a post office than from cyberspace.
Just look at all the information that has been lost over recent years ranging from medical records to DVLA information.

I also don't think that SARPA is in anyway shape or form capable of running such a mammoth operation, as it is all run by volunteers and the man hours and availability would be an issue. At present there is no Chairman or Secretary, so how on earth are we going to get an army of volunteers to sit and vet and load nformation and manage the data, i have put a lot of thought into a permit based idea. And having evaluated the time required this is why i thought of post offices. Your cutting down on expense and time because there is only a counterpart permit book to be filled in. Remember that airgun crime is on the decrease and really is only a small percentage of all crime. There is in my opinion no point in over complicating essentially what is an easy task. You get your permit the post office has the counterpart! If there is any doubt over your permit police can check it. Also there is no list that can be stolen or lost stating what guns you have in your property.

When it comes to collecting airgun serial numbers and a list of serial numbers i think this possibly goes to far, leave that to the system that is already in place with RFD's, i think there is an easier way to control the missuse. Control the sale of pellets, no permit no ammo! An airgun is as good as a doorstop if you have nothing to fire out of it.

At the end of the day this is good that we arfe all starting to possibly take this seriously, but i'm looking at all shooters and not those who are all into technology.
I bet you all know someone who refuses to register for online banking, or even direct debits.
We have to cater for all, and if we are all active shooters who go out the front door to participate in our hobby then surely dropping into a post office and buying/renewing a permit isn't a bad thing.

I think the positive side also is that we would be seen to promote our local post offices for which lots of rurals ones have been or are in the firing line for closure. Remember there are lots of rural shooters who don't live in big towns or cities.
I think the main objective is to keep it simple and as cheap as possible in order for it to be taken seriously. If the costs outweigh licencsing then they will just ban them! Anyone wishing to keep them puts them on FAC. Similar to SCAC guns, either hand them in or put them on ticket. This would solve the problem of having to compensate.

Rgds
Kenny

[Projmanraz]

Post removed by author who has also given in.

[Kenny]

Ohwell, i'll just shut the f*ck up and just wait to hand them in then. Here was me thinking that the members on here were wanting to work on a solution that is practicle, workable and cheap to install which only benefits and encourages shooters to self regulate..

Anyone got any other idea's cos i give in!

rgds
kenny

[Projmanraz]

Post removed by author

[Andy H]

Instead of post office, should clubs not be used, this would also increase revenue, anyone want to expand on this ?

[webmaster]

Why remove?

All valuable comments, we are here to DISCUSS.....

Projmanraz, on 19 May 2010 - 08:42 AM, said:

<br />Post removed by author<br />
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[kennymac]

Kenny, on 18 May 2010 - 10:07 AM, said:

I agree with manafacturers and traders being invovled in the loop,as this will also help track and locate the second airguns down, but i'm not keen on having a total web based content of personal details and how many airguns i have ready to be hacked and stolen.

The permit scheme from a post office is not new ideatit has already been in force, also less chance of getting an entire database of information from a post office than from cyberspace.
Just look at all the information that has been lost over recent years ranging from medical records to DVLA information.

I also don't think that SARPA is in anyway shape or form capable of running such a mammoth operation, as it is all run by volunteers and the man hours and availability would be an issue. At present there is no Chairman or Secretary, so how on earth are we going to get an army of volunteers to sit and vet and load nformation and manage the data, i have put a lot of thought into a permit based idea. And having evaluated the time required this is why i thought of post offices. Your cutting down on expense and time because there is only a counterpart permit book to be filled in. Remember that airgun crime is on the decrease and really is only a small percentage of all crime. There is in my opinion no point in over complicating essentially what is an easy task. You get your permit the post office has the counterpart! If there is any doubt over your permit police can check it. Also there is no list that can be stolen or lost stating what guns you have in your property.

When it comes to collecting airgun serial numbers and a list of serial numbers i think this possibly goes to far, leave that to the system that is already in place with RFD's, i think there is an easier way to control the missuse. Control the sale of pellets, no permit no ammo! An airgun is as good as a doorstop if you have nothing to fire out of it.

At the end of the day this is good that we arfe all starting to possibly take this seriously, but i'm looking at all shooters and not those who are all into technology.
I bet you all know someone who refuses to register for online banking, or even direct debits.
We have to cater for all, and if we are all active shooters who go out the front door to participate in our hobby then surely dropping into a post office and buying/renewing a permit isn't a bad thing.

I think the positive side also is that we would be seen to promote our local post offices for which lots of rurals ones have been or are in the firing line for closure. Remember there are lots of rural shooters who don't live in big towns or cities.
I think the main objective is to keep it simple and as cheap as possible in order for it to be taken seriously. If the costs outweigh licencsing then they will just ban them! Anyone wishing to keep them puts them on FAC. Similar to SCAC guns, either hand them in or put them on ticket. This would solve the problem of having to compensate.

Rgds
Kenny

Hi i am in go for it.

[squirrelhunter]

This all sounds perfectly reasonable to me, cant see any reason why it wouldnt be workable.

[Photoguy2910]

Kenny, is this not how shotgun certs started, small payment at the post office, get your permit and all legal, works for me. Do you want me to mention it to some of the MP's/MSP's I talk to?

Personally I know we have to be ready to get in there first and I can see this could work, a bit like the current game licence

[Kenny]

Feel free, i have a total working schedule typed up and still working on it. trying to perfect, hence the reason why i originally posted so i could get feedback on the basics.

we as airgunners need an attractively cheap solution that appeals to politicians, the way i see it there is no need to complicate a relatively simple exercise and increases costs so that it's not acceptable.

Rgds
Kenny

[Projmanraz]

Personally I would rather spend my time fighting any legislation that is to the detriment of air gunners in Scotland rather than roll over and give the msps a simple and cheap way to do what they intend.

If this was proposed as a method run by and administered by air gunners so that there was no need for government to bring in legislation I might be more in agreement.

This is turkeys voting for Christmas - fight the legislation, don't just accept it!

[Kenny]

Think your missing the whole point Ralph, it's not about giving in.

The whole point is to fight it and keep what is in place, but the purpose of discussing and coming up with a counter proposal thats workable and can be easily and quickly presented if we lose the fight mate.

Rather than have the MP's divolve the firearms act to Scotland the most sensible place to target is Westminster, but if powers are handed to Holryrood then i'd like to think that there is a counter proposal that looks cheap and effective rather than losing more of our rights.

Rgds
Kenny